Twin Cam or fully cammed for hyper!!

[<Allan>]

Hiya,

Yes I know that the fully cambered sail has better overal speed and stability, but Im wonderig after racing this weekend on my Nitro 2 8.7 if I would be better suited on a decent twin cam of similar size to give me better bottom end power, acceleration and easier in the transistions for a Club racer!!!

What are your thoughts??

[MennoB]

Hyper design is focused on maximum speed through minimized drag. So optimum fins, rigs to go with HS: low-drag, rather than bottomend power.

Optimum sails: low drag (full-race) rather than bottomend power (freeride/freerace with fuller profile).

[P.J.]

Allan

I have a HS with a Nitro II 9.0 which I used only if there is min 10knots. Below that I will prefer to sail my *156

The Ntiro below 9.8m are built for strong wind, it does not has low end power.

So it will be good to tell us the min wind you like to sail yr HS.

[sukhdev]

Hi Allan,

you are right, period.

I just did two events on the Asian windsurfing tour using a 9.3 and 7.5 GTX 2003. I didnt fully compete due to missing some races and having to drop out to take pictures etc but in both events I gave nothing away in reaching speed on these sails against some of Asia's best.

The GTX was rigged slightly over specs for both sails to get more top end. Our repair guru Ben raced on a 6.5 GTX 2003. We both feel the sails are ideally suited to the club racer. Logic is as follows:

- Sail has better bottom end than equivalent pure race sail.
- Less mast sensitive
- With aggressive downhaul, no real difference in top speed for most sailors
- much cheaper.

Another important fact: pure race sails these days are cut for high wind, eg a 9.0 race sail of any brand is used in racing only in the 20+ knot range. A sail like the GTX in the same size will have a lower wind range, more suited to realistic use.

Last season I raced on Sailworks Retros, this season on GTX. I've come to believe that for most sailors whatever top end limit there exists in freerace sails will NEVER be reached in real competiton. I'm a speed freak and neither sail gave me the feel of limiting my speed when rigged correctly (see my article on rigging the retro for speed in the technique section on www.bluefinz.com).

I know I'm being a contrarian on this and my position is a bit weird for someone in the windsurfing business but many other factors limit sailors before the sail itself. Save your money. Buy the very best mast you can and buy a GTX, then experiment and tune it.

Is this always true? Not necessarily, race sails ARE superior but everything else has to be right to make use of their superiority ie very best quality fins, good rigging and superior skills.

[MennoB]

Sukhdev mentions 2 very important points I oversaw:
-Fullon racesails are designed for FW use. The "small" sizes (ie 9.0) are designed for ridiculous windstrengths.
-Mere mortals (most of us) will not stretch the limit of a GTX, and will not even come close to the limit of a fullon racesail. Look at the windstrengths into which Phil McG takes the Nitro; I wouldn't even start thinking about trying that...

[sukhdev]

Menno, glad you noticed. I've actually thought about what wins or loses races alot. Lets look at what LOSES a race for most club racers:

- you start say 3 to 5 seconds late (very common for club racers). If the leaders plane off on the dot, you have lost about 30 to 50 metres of distance (if they are planing at 19knots, they are doing 10 metres per second).
- you lose 1 to 5 second per gybe, ok, say 2 seconds per gybe. You do 3 gybes, total lost 6 seconds, thats about 60 metres of distance.

So just by starting late, and by not doing fast  gybes, something like 60 to 100 metres of distance would be lost. No matter how "super" your sail, board or fin, no way can this huge a gap be made up (unless all the leaders decide to stop and go swimming). Just nailing the starts brings a huge improvement. Next would be getting the gybes right (and not falling in of course).

This is why many sailors can be "heroes" in pure drag racing battles but fall apart in a race. Back to the original topic, the sail is but one element, the hull obviously matters, the fin matters alot, sailor fitness..the list goes on.
 
 [ 27. January 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: sukhdev ]

[<Allan>]

Hi Sukhdev,

Yes, I tend to agree with your comments!!! thats what I have  found too!! Just curious to see if anybody else agreed.

Cheers Allan

[<Sven>]

Sukhdev,

Yeah your right. And with Fw rces you also lose because after the start (3-6 seconds late) you do not have clean air. You'd be slower at tacking say at least 2 seconds. You miss the important windshift(s)= big loss. Then you tack to early to nail tho top mark resluting in two other tacks. OR you miss the lay line for the top mark and loose a 5 seconds there.
The gybing you alreadt mentioned but missing the shifts and the layline here adds some more loss. Then (considering a upwind finish) you losse again on the tacks and you probably oversail the layline of the finish. And when the finish line is long you probably sail to the wrong end instead of the closest to the bottom mark.

This all is happening while your board speed is slow in comparison to the toppers.

Concusion of the pessimist: I'd better not start cause I lost already.
Conclusion by the optimist: There is a lot to gain by focused training and attending to a lot of races. Progress only happens through a lot of training.

Most elements do not have to be battled in the usual drag race where I'm sometimes overtaken by sailors who, in a race, loose before the start ever happens. Wrong side of the line, too late, not really speeding yet.

Isnt it a thrill to be part of such a magnificant competition? 'Still blaming the equipment is the major reason you hear on shore.... good for the surfshops but if no real benefit comes out of that they stop trying to race.... after all it seems harder then they think and what the hack they are the fastest drag racer so why bother to race.......

[<WannaGoFast>]

Sukhdev & guys,

great thread! Sort of really put things in perspective.

Sukhdev one question though you always recommend high quality (and high $$) fins, isnt that like out of step with your recommendation on sails?

[<Allan>]

As Far as fins are concerned that is an east upgrade which doesnt require any more input from the sailor, but does make you more efficient hence faster!!!

I feel that there is more to be gained from a twin cam sail on a slaom course than a fully cambered sail!!! eg acceleration transition etc.

You probably spend more time accelarating and gybeing on a course than you do flat out speed.

Now my next question which twin cams rock, I know you said GTX but has anybodt had any expereience of the Tushingham Lightening which is a twin cam, as this baby shifts!!!

[P.J.]

Wannagofast

A good custom fin last you for years. I have one that costs a little more but I take it thru all my formula baords. So the cost(pain) comes only as a one time investment.

When I have a new board I sometime sell the fin away, if you sell 2 it make-up for one custom.
 
 [ 28. January 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: H2O ]

[sukhdev]

Allan, freerace that I am very familiar with are the GTX and the Retro. I've sailed the V8s briefly so no comment there. No experience with tushingham at all.

Wannagofast, re fins, the density ratio between air and water is something like 800 to 1 (1 cubic metre of water weighs 1000kg,what does 1 cubic metre of air weigh?). A typical 32cm fin is something like 3xx sq cm in area. Translate this to relative speed of the sail through the air and suddenly the fin becomes super important.

You can do alot to a sail to tune it, use a better mast, stiffer mast, softer mast, reshape or change the battens, increase/decrease downhaul & outhaul..but once the fin is mounted thats it. A very good fin is noticeable in improvement even to intermediate sailors and can transform a board. As with sails, the size matching is critical too. However, one should not expect vast magical improvements by changing fins, the most important piece of equipment on the board is the person between the boom and footstraps.
 
 [ 28. January 2003, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: sukhdev ]

[<Allan>]

Hi Sukhdev,

Im having great difficulty in getting a good resonably cheap 40cm fin for the hyper, may need to resort to possibly a produaction fin any thoughts?? I would like a Tectronics if poss in 34cm for my 7.8 and a 40cm for my 8.7, any thoughts or solutions.

Ready available production fins are Select, Stix

Unless you know of any 2nd hamd debs for sale for me?

Cheers Allan
(UK)

[MennoB]

Allan,

Fin's www.fins-international.com used to make Deboichet replica's under the name of "Deboichet Concept". JJD design, Fin's production.

Apparently Curtis SR-6B is very good too.
It's not only Bill who writes that (all the time, and everywhere), but some other reputable riders too...enthousiastic comments on either Starboard or Gaastra site about that particular fin.

[sukhdev]

Menno, wasnt too impressed by the one Deb Concept i tried, its nothing like the custom deboichets..or at least the one I tried wasnt.

Allan, hopefully slalom fin makers will come into fashion again, been a while since anyone did any innovative design stuff on slalom fins. F-hot in UK used to make pretty decent fins, though have no experience of their newer ones (last sailed one many years ago). I guess I should go test the newer Curtis sometime,right now slalom fins are a bit thin on the ground. Boogie at C3 is supposed to be developing some for the hyper..for now I'm being a conservative old goat and sticking to my very well tried and tested Tectonics Gold Wings (28,32,34,36,38). For 42 I like the Spitfire and bigger than that the Mirage...but thats just me. Have heard nice things about Raptor out of Maui but never sailed one.