Finding the right FW board

[<Sven>]

Skudev,

First of all I will state that you are doing one hell of a job with this forum. Giving so much real experience through to us is very useful. I hope you keep it up this way. thumbs up.

To my question:

I'm not in the position to test FW boards. The board I eventually order will be almost the only one nearby. So I have to pick my new one based on someone elses info. How would you proceed if you had t go trhough such a decision making process.

If I ask questions to the manufactures they all state that their board is the best for me so that is not very helpful.
if I can not find a logical way to select, I will probably order a board that will not be IT for me and this trial and error thing then gets a bit to costy...

I sail on lakes 90% of the time. I like to compete. Most of the time the wind is light to medium and only strong on occasion. Mostly 7-14 knots. I have only limited time for training and learning all about a board so it must be a easy board to adjust to... How can I deduct a board with these caracteristics?

Last year I had one ride on the Mistral Devil and I was instantly faster downwind with it then I was with my 156 Starboard which I had fully dailed in. Don't know what the upwind could do for me cause after the downwind leg the wind dropped to 4 knots and less. but this experience got me interested in the Devil that's for sure.

If I'm abble to define the caracteristics I want in my new board how can I match that with the boards of which I can choose from. It will be a Devil II or a *147 or a Fanatic or Exocet or BIC or.....

For my last question:
I only can spend my money once. I only have enhough for a new board or a new sail or a new fin. From your experience up to now, where is the biggest advantage to gain? I now sail *156 with last year race sails. I still use the standard fin which got deliverd with the board.

Maybe I spend the money on a two week trip to you and test the different boards?? But then again I will have nothing left to buy me the board, sail or fin of my choice so...

 "can you give some usefull info??????"

[MennoB]

Hi Sven,

I sail the X186, and at 86 kgs probably heavier than you are.
Still, here's what I gathered surfing the forums and speaking to other competitors.

Devil I (not the II) is known to be very fast downwind, but not so strong upwind, and not really suited to sails over 11.0. So it doesn't surprise me you went better than on your F156 offwind; but remember you didn't have the chance to sail it upwind.
Devil II is developed to solve those weaknesses (upwind, large sails).

Bic FV1.4 is good in strong winds, less is light.
Very easy to control.

Falcon100 I is very good in light and medium, relatively difficult to control in highwind (nose tends to fly). Very fast offwind.

X186 is very good allround. Phil McG changed from Bic to X186 during last season, and he's not sponsored.

Problem with the X186 (and probably also X156) is quality of the fin. I find it too soft. It lacks bite, especially upwind and in lightwind. The fin is critical for performance.

Apparently the fin on the new F147 is better quality than the one on the X186. Still to be confirmed (see my other posting).

One important factor is how good your sail quiver is (quality, spacing, will they last another season). BTW, what is your largest sail?

Assuming:
-No need for replacement of sails
-No need for 12.5 sail

My advice would be:
-Upgrade the fin
-Or upgrade to F147 (fin included)

[sukhdev]

Sven, thanks for your very kind words; this is as much a passion as its a business so its a pleasure to share what little experience we all have.

You certainly don't ask easy questions!

Menno got it right on, other than the Fanatic which I have not sailed his assesment is pretty correct.

Every board you consider has its ups and downs and you will have to adapt in some way or other.

A good fin will make alot of difference to the 156. This will be cheapest and quickest.

Re the 147 option, as Menno mentioned you end up with a quality fin. This hull has a different feel to the 156 so you are going to go through a learning curve.

From what you mention you are sailing mostly in sub 14 knots. In these conditions anyone can control a x186 or a 147 (even a lightweight), so don't be afraid to consider a board with more volume. Further you are sailing on flat water so you wont have additional handling issues.

in summary if budget is an issue, go with the fin upgrade and a possible sail addition or upgrade. If budget is not an issue go 147.

Our team rider Meng was in Thailand a few weeks ago and did some pacing with the Polish team training there. He is pretty good downwind but he told me he was totally smoked by the polish guys on their 147s.
 
 [ 21. December 2002, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: sukhdev ]

[<Sven>]

Thanks Menno and Skudev,

What board was Meng sailing? If Wojtek would be on his X186 he sailed last year wouldn't he have smoked Meng also downwind? I'm just a little skeptic about these "provings"that something is really better...

For the advice form you both; this is the same as I already agttered by the various forums and so on. So while helpful it is not really an answer to my question. My question is more in the direction of what scoop rocker do I need to look for. What caracteristics do I need for my demand. I sail 12 9.8 and 8.7. My smallest sail only get used twice a year where I sail mostly with the 9.8. As I stated on other threads I'm not able to gain more form my 12 then I can get out of teh 9.8. So I think it is the board that is holding me down there. So I think I need to upgrade the board (and fin??)

Maybe the 147 is the choice to make but what if one of the other newcomers is  even better suited for me, I mean ; is there a way to know knowing that I will not be able to test these boards.

Still dwelling on my downwind run with the Devil. Maybe the Devil II solved the upwind problem?? Micah did not do bad this year either so it could track up anyway??

It is a hard choice to make and once the money is out of the pocket I will ahve to deal with what ever board I bought for me.....

[sukhdev]

Hi Sven,

I can understand the process you are going through. First of all, sailor skill overrides everything, and I mean everything. Lets take the BIC FW1.3. Alot of people say its not a light air board for heavyweights yet KP did incredibly well on it with a 12 in Fortaleza.

I'd like to make a suggestion; forget about what board and focus on where are your key sailing points that need improving. For example - are you ok upwind and reaching but have problems downwind? How does your reaching speed compare with your closest rivals? When going upwind do you like going high/slow vs low/fast?

Frankly the 156 is a very good board and in my heart of hearts I don't think you should look to a new hull being a magic bullet. By all means upgrade the fin and then work on technique. Investing in a good fin wont be wasted, its something you can retain even if you do eventually spend on a new hull. Even then, when you test a new hull you can use that fin as a constant. Fins have HUGE impact on formula boards, I can't emphasize enough how important they are.

There are lots of subtleties that can be worked on; I'll share a few here:
- going upwind, the rig needs to be super upright, even rolling your shoulders out makes a difference. Concentration is key, where your eyes look your body follows, stare with evil intent at where you want to head.
- going downwind is challenging. Some boards do this better than others but mostly some sailors do it much better than others. Keeping the hull trimmed on the rail so that it doesnt smack and stick is key. A high rockered board makes it easier but at the price of upwind performance.
- Rigging is everything. Under or overdownhauling a sail equally kills performance. I'm fanatical about 2 things (1) rigging (2) fins.
- Leg strength : for formula sailing this is just so key. My fitness this year is not where it should be and it clearly shows up, the ability to drive the hull without legs tiring determines speed to a great extent. Its no accident that so many top racers cross train with bicycles (Buzianis, McGain for example).

Lastly its mental attitude. So many sailors can blast around in normal sailing but will fall apart in a race. In the end its often a case of the sailor who can bear the most pain the longest who ends up the fastest.

Examine everything. Boom height, harness lines, downhaul, footstrap spread etc..force yourself to find a recipe for getting more speed out of your current hull. Find a sailor better than you and benchmark continously. Ban yourself from upgrading the board till you sail this one faster.

---
on a separate note re rocker lines: I spent quite a few years getting a wide variety of light air hulls custom made by Rogue Wave (Lee Brittain) and Mike Zajicek. My take is the obvious one..everything is a trade off, make the hull early to plane or easy downwind and you have to trade off something...the reason the 147 impresses me so much is the level of compromise reached is very suprisingly high.

Really good hulls are very well behaved across a wide range of conditions; alot of the current production formulas tend to have weaknesses biased towards particular conditions.

Prior to the 147, the standout for me was (and to some extent still is) the BicFW1.4. Its just plain FUN to sail, for me that instinctive comfort is key to me getting performance out of a hull. For the lighter sailors here who went to the 156, very few are rushing to change to the 147 simply because the 156 can deliver alot of performance.

i've written an essay...i hope some of it is useful..this is an area i've thought about alot over the past years..and if i can clarify in any way do let me know..

merry xmas & a happy new year
 
 [ 23. December 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: sukhdev ]

[MennoB]

Hi Sven,

I did my first regattas on a X186 in 2002.
But I've been windsurfing since 18 years on high-performance gear, and I can tell you there's a large difference between being a fast dragracer (or even the the fastest on your spot), and being good in formula regattas.

First of all: there is no substitute for TOW (time on the water).

Then regarding your board choice, and how to improve. Before all, I agree with all the points mentioned by Sukhdev.

Each formula board is a trade-off, and some of them are better. Your board must be suited to:
-Your personal characteristics
-The WS locations where you go most often (ie where your competitions are!)

Each board has strengths and weaknesses in different areas. IMO you must assess each board regarding:
-1-Upwind vs downwind
-2-Flat water vs choppy
-3-Low wind vs high wind

Surf the forums (especially Gaastra), and you will find the strengths and weaknesses of each board.

It is also helpfull if you know who shaped the board (preferences...) and where the board was developed.
For instance: the Bic FV1.4 was shaped by Mike Zajicek, and developed in the SF Bay. This area is known for high windstrength and has probably the most harsh/nasty chop you will find anywhere around the world.
Mike Zajicek boards excel in high wind and rough water (ie good control). The Bic FV1.4 is very easy to sail off the wind over nasty chop.

Here is my take on the best-known boards:

AHD95
+ light wind, upwind
- strong wind, downwind (flat nose)

Bic FV1.4:
+ strong wind, downwind, angle upwind
- light wind, across the wind

Fanatic F100 I
+ light wind, downwind
- strong wind, upwind in strong wind

Mistral Devil I
+ downwind, strong wind
- upwind, lightwind (not efficient with 11-plus sails)

Starboard X186
+ Overall balance

AFAIK, Starboard is the only producer offering different boards for different weight classes.
Rationale behind this is that a board with too much volume is harder to control by people who are light and/or not so strong.

IMO the F156 is a very good board, but less strong in lighter winds and less efficient with large sails (12). Less volume means deeper in the water; more hull drag with large sails.

The best thing you can do is:
-Get that better fin. For instance the Hurricane FRB2, hard. The standard fin is too soft.
-Maximise TOW
-Find yourself a training buddy. You must practice, but also need "comparison material".
-When training with a buddy, switch board and sail.
-Keep track of your personal strengths and weaknesses. Upwind, downwind, strong winds, light winds. Also keep track of how they develop!

You need to gather a lot of experience, and you only gather that by comparing to other "formulists", either in training or (better) in races. Don't put your expectations too high for the first season. First season is for learning only; everything extra is a bonus.

It's only after 1 season, that you have insight.

[wee]

Sukhdev, put your rider Meng on a strict diet, he shld be able to see some of the bubbles left behind by the Polish Team.

[<Sven>]

So maybe my first step should be getting myself a new fin. Skudev, There are a few guys you know using the 156 isn't it?? What fins do they like best ? Is it a deb R13  or 12 and what hardness?/

I'm a little bit over 80 KG. So already a little overweight for the 156? And I use mostly 10 meters cause I can't get any extra out of my gaastra 12

A second question: My 10 is a little to tight in the top and if I downhaul it even more the foot flaatens out to much while the entry is to flat also. What can I do to gt a bit more leech flop whil keeping a fuller entry and foot?  I even cosider bringeng the sail to a manufacturer to get it altered. What can be done?

Thanks upfront again and have nice X-mas days.
BTW Are you competing in the FW comp in between X-mass and new year?? Still the boards from 2002 or may you use the 147? If you compete I wish you every gust that's available.

[sukhdev]

Sven, at your weight in really light winds (below 12knots) you could use more volume, but the 156 should still work good for you. its not just the volume that counts but its distribution, the 147 wins out here because of the way the tail volume is distributed. The tail volume helps to cope with a more powerful fin for very low end conditions.

Re fins - what I've tested that works good on the 156 is the r13h or the frb3 hurricane.

Ok your sail...this is what I have done before on my Nitro 1 to get the effect you are looking for. I actually carried a sail to Maui to get Barry Spanier to do it for me & after watching him I've tried this succesfully on several sails:
- take out the  two battens above the boom and one below the boom
- peel back the polyethene cover and then push the batten down against the ground and watch the bend.
- from about 10cm from the tip to another 20cm, sand the batten lightly, say 6 or 7 strokes on each side with 100grit paper. Even a small amount of sanding will have an effect. Be careful not to sand too much as then you will need a new batten.
- Flex the batten and observe the shape change.
- Re-rig and tune as normal.
- repeat if necessary (carefully!).
Its risky...you might screw up your batten..but it works..

 Barry's comments on batten sanding from the Gaastra forum

Re racing..we have several events coming up but it looks like I'll only be able to make two of them..work gets in the way..the Asian windsurfing tour in Malaysia and Indonesia..but even thats not certain. I do hope to do a slalom event in Vietnam in February.
 
 [ 24. December 2002, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: sukhdev ]