Cambered vs Camless Sail

[Silvia]

Hi, I may have missed this discussion previously. But I was just wondered whats the main difference...thanks

[PlaneSailin]

*sigh*   

The main difference is that cambered sails have cams, and camless sails don't.

[weng]

*sigh*   

The main difference is that cambered sails have cams, and camless sails don't.

Spoken with substance.....NOT!!

Anyway Cambered sails allow the sail profile to be more locked in which means 1. more stability in the gusts 2. ability to plane through the lulls more than a non-cambered sail.  Disadvantages of a cambered sail are 1. weight 2. depending on the luff size more difficult to waterstart if the luff fills with water (RSR users will agree with this I am sure  ).  Cambered sails give u better top-end speed so it all depends on what your preference is when it comes to windsurfing

[PlaneSailin]

She only asked what the MAIN difference was, and yet you insist on telling her all this other stuff...

 

[P.J.]

My preference :

10 m - 8.5 m - 3 cams for good upwind on formula board.
8.5 m - 7.5m - 2-3 cams for nice lock in feel on slalom board.
Below - 7.0m - camless on freeride board to have better control in rough condition.

We used to have on bluefinz some well written articles by Sukhdev on the difference. Let me see if he still have them.

[PlaneSailin]

Another thing to consider is that the cambered sails take longer to rig, and rigging them can be quite a hassle. 

Sometimes, they are very mast-specific, i.e. you are supposed to only use a certain type of mast with them. 

AND, if you leave a cambered sail hanging up without a boom attached, the chance of a batten breaking is greater because the cam puts a sharp bend in the batten when you release some downhaul.  (Unfortunately, most of the "with boom" sail lofts at PA seem to be occupied by people who use their sails about once a season...but that's anther story)



As for camless sails, many have an almost completely flat profile until they get a good bit of wind in them to fill out the shape.  My Hot Sails SuperFreak will depower completely when you sheet out, and you can see the shape of the sail changing gradually as you sheet in or out, giving a sense of having very precise control.  It's not so great in marginal conditions, though. 

If you want the locked-in shape of a cambered sail without using cams, and you don't intend to be a champion racer or gps hero, there is one brand that makes a very popular No-Cam Freeride sail...   

[Denis Wee]

*sigh*   

The main difference is that cambered sails have cams, and camless sails don't.

Andrew, you said that with such smugness that I cannot resist a little bit of nit-picking.

The camber is actually the curved shape of the sail close to the mast and the little things that help give it that shape are called camber inducers, commonly called "cams".  I am told that Gaastra holds a patent for the way the camber inducers are held against the mast and all sail manufacturers who use this system have to pay Gaastra a fee.  Anyone would like to confirm that?

Main advantages of cambered sails:
 - More stable as the sail holds its shape over a wide wind range.
 - Better upwind performance as a cambered sail can theoretically point higher.  In course racing, (formula, one design or RSX, etc.), if you are not using a cambered sail you are at a big disadvantage.

[PlaneSailin]

REAL controversial topic, PJ!  Thanks for locking it!   

What's next - "26cm harness lines vs 28cm harness lines - who's cool and who's a loser?"

Anyway...

It's ok Denis, you're not nit-picking; I'm obviously biased toward camless sails coz I'm a lazy b@$t@rd, and don't have a "with boom" loft at PA, and so now we expect to hear from the pro-cam people.



Question: DO cambered sails really point better, assuming you can't adjust the outhaul on the fly?  Or does the flatter upwind profile of a camless sail give it an edge upwind?  I have questions but no answers...and faster doesn't always mean better; I want to know if they can they point higher, easier, too...

[P.J.]

Dennis - where is the article you wrote on apparent wind ?
It will help to explain why camber sail will go upwind better.

[Denis Wee]

Question: DO cambered sails really point better, assuming you can't adjust the outhaul on the fly?  Or does the flatter upwind profile of a camless sail give it an edge upwind?  I have questions but no answers...and faster doesn't always mean better; I want to know if they can they point higher, easier, too...

Notice I said "theoretically".  It comes from aeronautics wing theory.  A non-cambered wing (yes, the word "camber" was originally use on aircraft wings) will generate no lift if the angle of attack is zero, whereas a cambered wing will still generate lift if the angle of attack is zero.  If you apply that same theory to sails, you  can assume that for small angles of attack, cambered sails will give you more lift than non-cambered ones.  OK, I've confused you. Maybe you should just sleep on it.

Dennis - where is the article you wrote on apparent wind ?
It will help to explain why camber sail will go upwind better.

It's still on this website I presume.  All you need to do is make it accessible to people who log on.  Anyway, you can just search for it on Google under "windsurfing apparent wind".

[m3l]

Simplifying all that is said..

With camber sail = More power

Without camber sail = Lesser power

Cambered sails performance lvl starts from really low end to high..  Camberless sail performance lvl starts from mid end to high end..

All these changes with the skill level of the sailor..

[PlaneSailin]

...then along came the Ezzy No-Cam Freeride and changed everything...   



...btw, here is some information from NASA (remember them?) which seems at odds with what we've learned about how sails work...yikes!



http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/wrong1.html

[38 mph]

Hey MY 11..........where are all those old articles ?
And pictures ??
The site is way too tidy !!
Speed and slalom.......cambers
Everything else..........no need

[Syamil]

Denis Wee's article on Apparent Wind

The rest of Sukhdev's articles cannot be found on bluefinz anymore, i.e no longer on the server. I hope somebody saved them.

[Silvia]

Read the article and it is really helpful and puts a lot of questions I had into better perspective. But the question relating back to the topic is, wouldn't more cams play a important role in increasing the weight of the sail and thus making it slower?