Q. Sukhdev ,155 vs 147 for recreational sailing?

[<david>]

Hi Sukhdev, I have a 155 which I use for blasting. I have never raced and probably never will. Do you think it's worth upgrading to a 147 just so I can plane in the lulls with the 1 metre formula boards or will I be trading fun for upwind angle?

[sukhdev]

I'd say you would gain more than upwind. The boards are very different. 147 is much shorter, rocker is different, it "sticks" much less on the downwind than the 155 and go much deeper in angle downwind. Upwind of course there is no comparision. Same with early planing.

147 is light for its size and has a very lively feel, unlike previous formula. I found putting on a smaller fin (66 in my case) when its windy gives me a board that flies on the reach and downwind but yet is great upwind. I'd suggest  you try the 147 out, thats the best way to compare.

Upwind ability actually adds alot of fun to sailing. Last wednesday (windy!), the 147 and a 9.3 allowed me to beat upwind to Keta and blast back deep downwind time after time. Nothing quite like being really powered on a deep downwind angle, thats speeeed.

[<B2B>]

Sukhdev,

What do you think is the smallest sail that can be used on the 147? I know the marketing stuff says all kind of sizes but what is realistic?

[sukhdev]

B2B,

depends on a bunch of factors. For me personally the smallest I would go is 7.5 because from experience I know I can hang on to a 9.0 till the 20s. For my weight/height I find smaller than 7.5 feels a bit unbalanced, though I've used as small as a 6.5 on the bicfw1.3 and the 186, just to test.

I'd say 7.0 to 7.5 for most sailors but bear in mind changing down to that small a sail would really mean you need to switch fins as well. You can go out of control from too much fin lift as easily as you can go out of control from too much sail. Here's how I would do fin/sails on the 147:
12, 10.4  : 70cm
9.3 : 66cm
8.3/7.5 : 62cm
I can't imagine going smaller than that for racing for my size (85kg).

Sail sizing for recreation and course racing would be very different, if you want lazy relaxed cruising you could downsize pretty early.

Its an odd hull; its one of those that work well in light wind but also has a really great feeling when you really are on the edge.
 
 [ 18. February 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: sukhdev ]

[<AJ>]

sukhdev is it much of a learning curve going from experienced freeride sailor to a 2002 *board formula 186.  I see one for a very good price and I just want it for light winds with 8.5m GTX and the ability to fly upwind is appealing.  Maybe it could lead to some social racing in the future.  In your opinion would I be able to plane in 10 knots with this combination? I'm 68kg

Also is there much difference between 2002/2003 GTX sails?  Thanks...

[sukhdev]

quote: sukhdev is it much of a learning curve going from experienced freeride sailor to a 2002 *board formula 186. I see one for a very good price and I just want it for light winds with 8.5m GTX and the ability to fly upwind is appealing. Maybe it could lead to some social racing in the future. In your opinion would I be able to plane in 10 knots with this combination? I'm 68kg    

AJ, in reality most formulas are sold for freeride use. You should have no problems adapting to them. I've got a bunch of tips here at  http://www.bluefinz.com/html/Technique/formula/index.htm
You hit the nail on the head, being able to go upwind effortlessly opens up a whole host of sailing possibilites.

Re planing in 10 knots; at your weight you should be able to get 186/8.5 combo going in that wind. Early planing is highly technique dependent. Its not ideal if you want race level upwind ability but for free ride use it should be no problem. Play with the downhaul setting especially, you want the leech fairly tight in light air. The 186 was way underrated, its early planing and light wind ability is excellent. Once you get good at the formula you could consider a 9.8 for your light air sail, keep the 8.5 for mids.

Re 2002 vs 2003: we took on Gaastra starting with the 2003 collection so I've not had experience with the 2002 so I can't comment on differences. My original intent in sailing the GTX was to offer tuning settings etc; I have ended up liking the 9.3 and 7.5 alot. For the use you have in mind, you won't lose anything going for GTX over Nitro, you will save a bunch of $. Put that $ saved into the best mast you can buy and you've got a winning combo.

[<AJ>]

Thanks for the feedback sukhdev.  I just have one more question which may sound silly but would the formula 186 be ok for learners with 5m sail?  My girlfriend wants to learn but I don't want to buy a Start or Go when I can have the 186.

Thanks,
AJ

[sukhdev]

Hi AJ,

sure, no reason why she can't at least for the early stages. The big advantage the GO and START have in the early stages is the rubber deck, no bruises on delicate skin. Either neoprene or lycra leggings will help her alot with preserving her skin while getting on and off.

Get a mast pad & boom pad, and get an old 5.0. There is going to be a ton of abrasion on the foot of whatever sail she is using to learn, due to uphauling. Get a narrow grip boom, carbon if you can, a light weight rig helps alot. And oh...be prepared for your fin to be abraded    

how do I know? been there..done that.. and now she is more of a windsurfing addict than i am.

[<AJ>]

quote:Originally posted by sukhdev:
Upwind ability actually adds alot of fun to sailing. Last wednesday (windy!), the 147 and a 9.3 allowed me to beat upwind

Hi sukhdev,

I'm going to buy a 2002 *board 186 but I've never used a sail bigger then 6.7m but you mention using the 9.3 when its windy.  Do big 2002/03 race sails handle higher winds better then freeride sails?  Weighing 68kg I couldn't imagine using a 9.3m in 20 knots but do formula boards make them more managable compared to freeride?

Because of my bank balance I can only afford to get one race sail and I planned to get a new GTX 8.0 but see I some good deals going on bigger 9-10m older 2002 race sails.  What size would you recommend if I was only getting one.  I must admit those big sails scare me, can you water start with them?

[sukhdev]

quote: I'm going to buy a 2002 *board 186 but I've never used a sail bigger then 6.7m but you mention using the 9.3 when its windy. Do big 2002/03 race sails handle higher winds better then freeride sails? Weighing 68kg I couldn't imagine using a 9.3m in 20 knots but do formula boards make them more managable compared to freeride?
 

AJ, race sails handle strong winds extremely well. In fact to get the most out of them its best to sail them at the edge or very close to it. Formula boards are designed for upwind/downwind and at these angles it possible to hold way more sail area than you would on the reach. Freeride boards are reaching oriented so you would not need as much sail area.

 

quote: I planned to get a new GTX 8.0 but see I some good deals going on bigger 9-10m older 2002 race sails. What size would you recommend if I was only getting one. I must admit those big sails scare me, can you water start with them

I'm assuming you want one sail to cover a broad range. If you go for a race sail, a 9.3 would allow a fair bit of range, enough so that when you are overpowered on it you could step down to a smaller freeride board with a 6.7. I'm inclined to suggest the GTX however. The light weight and easy handling/rigging would suit what you are looking for more. Sure the race sails may be a good deal but for sure you will get a lot of fun out of a GTX, I'd look at a 8.5.

And yes, you can easily waterstart big sails   . There is a little trick to clearing them out of the water. By definition the boom is past the tail of the board so resting the boom there is out. Swim the board/sail combo beam to the wind. lets imagine you are starboard tack, ie you are on the right side of the board looking forward. you would then use the hand that is going to be at the boom front (right in this case) to hold the boom. Cross your left arm underneath and place your hand on the tail of the board. Wait for a gust, push down on the board and sweep the boom hand into the wind to get the rig clear. The pushing down motion on the tail effectively raises the mast foot as the bow rises up; this helps clear the sail. Voila! Up and away.

[<AJ>]

Cheers Sukhdev much appreciated