Big sail on small board combination

[f2]

Went out today on a 9m RX2 with a Thommen medium, length-275, width-56 and fin-34
I think the winds hit a high of 17 knots and surprisingly I had no spin outs.
The board just kept on going in light or strong winds.
Was sweeping pass all the formulas and was keeping in pace with the short boards.
The combination seems to work well even in light winds of about 10 knots. I felt I was max out all the time, don’t get me wrong even when the winds picked up I was still very much in control.
Makes me wonder why they designed the Hyper Sonic when a board like what I used today seemed to out-perform the HS.
Any comments??

[<F4>]

f2,

did u manage to overtake TC,Meng,Andrew or Sukhdev on their formula gears with your present setup ?

[f2]

What do you think?
Whether or not I over took them is not the point. Why? You want to take me on?
Can we have more constructive comments here please???

[b_mouz]

haha! fun ar yesterday!  

[<Chris Lockwood>]

Big sails work fine on small boards and small fins if:

1) There is enough wind that you dont have to pump onto the plane

2) You dont try to go upwind

3) you dont mind being passed by smaller sails in the gusts

4) you dont mind having your arms ripped off!

Wider boards (like Kinetic 67) will hold a 9.0 more comfortably, gybe better, go upwind, and be just as fast as a smaller board.

If you dont have access to bigger equipment, and dont mind muscling around on the water, then this combo is better than nothing!!

[cwg]

hi f2

i had used (and still have) a roguewave slalom 274 and it is a rocket. now i'm starting to sail the HS quite a bit. i'm not an advanced experienced sailor like you but i wud like to share my thots on the pros of the HS design :

+ because of width, can handle wider range of sail sizes compared to slalom designs; so for the majority of sailors who wud like to minimise equipment, this design is ideal.
+ speed is comparable to the slalom designs (at least for me).
+ allows much faster transition/ shorter learning curve for beginners/intermediate sailors to racing with the wider breadth (more room to stand on !)
+ better early planing.
+ more upwind angle control .

I also notice that good sailors (like yourself) can optimise the performance of any gear and still be fast. Having watched races/ racers  for the last 15 years, i still see the same guys coming tops whether they used slalom or HS/formula. So i am quite curious to hear your opinion AFTER you try out the HS . if you like, you are more than welcome to borrow my HS for a test run.

[sukhdev]

Vincent,

thats an interesting test you did, was watching you head out. Perhaps we can do some pacing and swop gear and figure out the difference. It would be interesting to do a 3 way test, formula, HS and traditional slalom.

I'll make a wild guess here; other than planing earlier on the 9.0, I think you may find actual reaching speed is not much faster than if you would have used a 7.5 say. For small boards, big sails seem to create more drag faster so at some point other than the initial "pull" to get planing, a smaller rig may actually be faster on once fully planing. This was my experience on the hyper, the 9.0 got me planing early but I felt I was actually faster on the 7.5..anyway something worth testing. We will have the hyper125 in by next week so thats another one we can test.

You may want to read the latest issue of BOARDS, they have a very detailed test on the hyper with some interesting results.

as CWG says you are welcome to test the hyper, we have a 36cm fin on it now but if you want to try it with the 9 let me know and we'll put on a 42 or 38.
 
 [ 13. February 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: sukhdev ]

[<F4SUX>]

quote:Originally posted by <F4>:
f2,

did u manage to overtake TC,Meng,Andrew or Sukhdev on their formula gears with your present setup ?

u worshipped them huh?

[f2]

Cgw

In the 1st place I have never claimed to be an advanced experienced sailor nor have I ever said that I was a good sailor. Please let me make this clear as I do not want to be accused for making false claims. Thank you.

Secondly, thank you for your comments.

Now let me touch on your points:

+ because of width, can handle wider range of sail sizes compared to slalom designs; so for the majority of sailors who wud like to minimise equipment, this design is ideal.

Reply: This is the point I was making, a slalom would be able to handle a smaller sail definitely much better then a HS and there’s no doubt about it. I have tried sails ranging from 3.3-9m on slalom and they all seem to work pretty well too and let’s face it, a narrower board goes faster then a wider one.    

+ speed is comparable to the slalom designs (at least for me).

Reply: Maybe you need to sail a bit more?? Maybe??

+ allows much faster transition/ shorter learning curve for beginners/intermediate sailors to racing with the wider breadth (more room to stand on !)

Reply: True, but I think beginners should learn the hard way. The way I look at it, if they start on those boards they’ll probably stay on them for the longest time before ever trying a real short board like a slalom or wave.

+ better early planing.

Reply: I was planing just as early as the formulas.

+ more upwind angle control .

Reply: Now that’s one thing I can’t refute. When it comes to real course racing like the trapezoid and double sausage I believe slalom would have some problems but I think races in this region don’t have course like these for short boards. Do they??

[f2]

quote:Originally posted by <Chris Lockwood>:
Big sails work fine on small boards and small fins if:

1) There is enough wind that you dont have to pump onto the plane

Reply: no pain, no gain, any problems with pumping??

2) You dont try to go upwind

Reply: tried it, no problem, same with small sails

3) you dont mind being passed by smaller sails in the gusts

Reply: on the Contrary, I think I went faster when the gusts hits.

4) you dont mind having your arms ripped off!

Reply: Was out today winds hit gusts of over 20 knots and my arms are still attached!!

Wider boards (like Kinetic 67) will hold a 9.0 more comfortably, gybe better, go upwind, and be just as fast as a smaller board.

If you dont have access to bigger equipment, and dont mind muscling around on the water, then this combo is better than nothing!!

Reply: I have access to bigger equipment but I still choose the Thommen medium,feels like the perfect board for any sail size.

[f2]

sukhdev

Theoretically you should be right, that I should be feeling a little drag on the reach but somehow think the power I get from the sail seems to push the board even faster and eliminates the drag, possible??

Your comment:
“This was my experience on the hyper, the 9.0 got me planing early but I felt I was actually faster on the 7.5..anyway something worth testing.”

Can the drag be cause by the width of your board and not the size of your sail? Or maybe the HS has a low end speed limit. Like you said you only FELT like you were actually going faster.

Thanks for the offer on letting me try the HS I wouldn’t mind taking it up one of these days.

BTW some pacing and swapping of gear and figuring out the difference would be interesting.

[sukhdev]

Vincent,

2 kinds of drag:
one is induced drag (stick your hand out a car window, the force "sucking" your hand back is induced drag)
second is pure friction (wetted surface),ie how much hull is in contact with the water
[there is a 3rd called parasitic drag but lets ignore that for now]

wide boards have less induced drag. Bear in mind a wide hull actually rides on a shorter flat section that a trad long narrow flat slalom rocker. The actual area in contact with the water may not be that much different.

the drag of a sail through the air is VERY significant, pick up a big rig and swing it through still air to get an idea.

all this is very dependent on point of sail (upwind, reach, downwind), sail size & rigging and fin (assuming the hull is a constant).

how do i know its sail drag and not hull drag? simple, I kept the board but swopped sails in the same wind strength. You can use as much as 2sq meter less for reaching than you would for upwind/downwind.

enough theory...lets test it out one of these days.

[f2]

Sukhdev

How do you gather that wide boards have less induced drag compared with slalom boards?

As for the induced drag from sails, I think the aerodynamics of a big sail is not much different from a small one, and don’t you think a big sail gives more power?
I look at it this way, put a powerful engine in a bus and the same engine in a sports car, which goes faster? And apply this to formulas and slaloms, can we say that?

[<Chris>]

whas 'appenin!

I believe that we can hereby come to the conclusion that no one in any one set of equipment is fast... perhaps most of the time but not everyday. As every day winds, waves, state of minds, sailors weight, skill level, rigging skill, state of the equipment..... vary.Thats probably the reason why some people have MANY sets of equipment (ahem). Lets compare with an everyday occurence.... like women.....

Thats the reason why manufacturers come up with DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS to plug the hole for every conceivable scenario.

Thats the reason why competitors keep asking themselves what equipment to use and even how to rig for that particular heat.

Have you ever thought of learng how to tension your sail in the water?!

 

[<mermaid>]

hi chris
wat talking you ah?
i think the subject was about finding the best overall board lah...